Episode 1 – Jason Lee from Horizon Media

Welcome to the inaugural episode (Episode 1) of the Breaking Through the Mayhem podcast — the show where we explore marketing and advertising in a time of constantly shifting risk and opportunity.

Brought to you by Sightly, our goal is to share the insights of industry leaders from brands, agencies, publishers and partners as they discuss the challenges and possibilities emerging from the ever-shifting media landscape, such as real-time marketing, brand safety and purpose, influencers, cancel culture, data privacy, technology and more.

Today’s guest is Jason Lee, EVP of Brand Safety & Consumer Advocacy at Horizon Media. Founded in 1989, Horizon Media is a leader in driving business-based outcomes for marketers. Recognized as one of the world’s ten most innovative marketing and advertising companies by Fast Company, Horizon Media has been named Media Agency of the Year by MediaPost, Adweek and AdAge and is known for its highly personal approach to client service.

Throughout his career in advertising and media, Jason has worked with a variety of Fortune 500 companies to activate strategic digital marketing campaigns across multiple consumer touch points. He has successfully managed large teams to consistently exceed marketing objectives, while continually driving innovation and improvement.

In the episode, which was recorded live at the Brand Safety Summit NY on November 3, 2022, Jason discusses:

• What his new role as EVP of Brand Safety & Consumer Advocacy entails
• How the complexities of today’s media environment affects advertising
• The factors affecting whether brands lean in to emerging moments
• How brands can define themselves deeply to move more quickly
• Who should define all of a brand’s facets and why it matters
• The importance of data to making brand safe media decisions

To find out more about all the great work Horizon Media does, visit its website or follow the company on LinkedIn and Twitter @HorizonMedia. You can also connect with Jason directly on LinkedIn.

The Breaking Through the Mayhem podcast - Episode 1

Host: Adam Katz, Chief Revenue Officer & GM, Sightly
Guest: Jason Lee, EVP, Brand Safety & Consumer Advocacy, Horizon Media
Recorded live at the Brand Safety Summit NY, November 3, 2022

Adam Katz:

Welcome to Sightly’s Breaking Through the Mayhem Podcast, marketing in a time of constantly shifting risk and opportunity. This is going to be the first episode of all time and we have the amazing guest, Jason Lee from Horizon Media. Before we jump in, I'm your host, Adam Katz, and we're live here at the Brand Safety Summit for our first ever experience.

Jason, why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself? I’ve known you for five years, but a lot of people here don't know you.

Jason Lee:

My role is a newer one. Let me give a quick background of who I am and what I'm doing here at this conference and throughout this industry. I'm the EVP of Brand Safety and Consumer Advocacy at Horizon Media. Throughout the years, as an industry, we've talked a lot about brand safety. How do we provide guidance, strategic oversight and really help our clients and brands maneuver within this culture of increased information, fragmentation of media, consumers getting information from multiple sources?

And how do we help brands break through that to really understand where they should be, what they should be saying, what these messages are, and really how to how to move their businesses forward in a way that is responsible, respectful, and really puts the consumer mindset in mind and really help protect consumers and brands alike? So this role was created to really be a strategic guidance for clients in that regard.

Adam Katz:

Wow. That's a lot, right? So are you feeling comfortable in the new role already?

Jason Lee:

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's interesting. The role is new, but this is not new to us in the industry, society. I think we all have recognized that there's been a sizable shift in how we consume information, media. We talked a lot about Zeitgeist historically and Zeitgeist are multiplying and there seems to be a different trajectory for different political beliefs and different opinions.

The world has become much more complex, right? So we've dealt with this. We just haven't had a focused effort, often in the industry and on the agency side and clients alike, that really is dedicated to help clients in this regard. Given the trajectory and the increase of that complexity, there's really a need for that. So we're really focusing more on that and putting the resources behind it to really, really prioritize that.

Adam Katz:

I love that. What do you consider utopia for a brand to navigate today's speed of culture and the tendency for people to align around their own positions and quickly pass their own judgments?

Jason Lee:

Sure. I think first, I think brands are thinking through whether they should actually be a part of that conversation. Historically, it's been a question, should you or could you lean in and be a part of the conversation? And if there's something that's happening in the world, do you lean in and respond to that? Do you hold back? Do you change your creative messaging?

That decision for clients and brands historically is now shifting. No longer is it a decision, but it's almost an obligation. It’s clients pulling you in as the world is changing. Sometimes consumers are pulling you in. You talk about the rapid world of social media, it's not out of the question or outlandish for a consumer to make a statement about a brand.

And at that point, you say, you can't ignore it. In many cases, you have to make the decision of, should I respond? Should I lean in? It's more and more difficult for clients to actually say, I'm going to remain quiet.

Adam Katz:

You touch on a lot of really, really good points. I think a big question I would ask you then is, how would your organization go around having those conversations today with brands to figure out the go to market strategy? Where do you start? How do you dig deep into those types of conversations and make sure that you understand the stance of a brand to be able to react in today's world?

Jason Lee:

That is a fantastic question. Honestly, many brands don't even have the answer to that. What we're doing is taking a step back with clients and really trying to better understand them and have them better understand themselves. So a little bit of self-awareness and really prioritizing in terms of what are your brand pillars, what are your corporate ethos, what is your level of risk or risk aversity overall? What are your priorities as an organization? 

Many times we talk through brand houses and what the brand stands for and revenue goals. But there isn't always that prioritization of cultural moments or how do you feel about political beliefs? Do you want to have an opinion? Do you want to remain neutral?

Clients don't always know that. And quite frankly, even the subjective gets caught up with the objective in many cases. You might have a CMO with a certain opinion, right? And that might counter that of the brand overall or your priority customer base that's driving the highest LTV might completely disagree with that CMO. And so where does the penny fall in terms of what should you do?

So, to answer your question more squarely, step one is having an audit and having a frank conversation with clients to say, what is most important to you in your business? What makes your business move forward? What is your consumer base? Where do you draw the line? And if X, Y, Z were to happen, how do you react? Really determining on that continuum exactly where your priorities lie and where or where you might want to act. It's no longer, “we have a brand and we have a goal with this campaign.” The world is bifurcating in such a way where you need to actually lean in and determine what's most important for you.

Adam Katz:

I agree. And, to make those decisions, I think we could all agree we don't have all the information yet to do this perfectly. But I think we're all yearning to get more and more information to do this better. What information do you feel like you're not getting today that would help you make better decisions for your brands?

Jason Lee:

That's another good question. What helps us make the best decisions is data, information, understanding what's out there in the trades, social media. What others in the industry or consumers alike or talking through, and really having a better understanding of conversations, themes, trends that are surfacing to the top. Clearly, none of us in the world have a crystal ball, but I think leveraging the data that we have, everything I just mentioned, plus consumer sentiment, social conversation, etc. is really the best tool we have to best understand this.

Some of that's available now. Some of it's not. I think what we're trying to do is be less reactive. So don't wait for a situation to occur and be reactive and take that data and say, what should we do? How do we make a decision? We're trying to anticipate these and leverage information, understand what a groundswell might be, what are the themes and topics that are increasing and try to get ahead of it, try to get responses proactive.

Adam Katz:

And what do you do in that situation if you make a mistake?

Jason Lee:

Oh, we don't make mistakes.

Adam Katz:

Obviously! Listen, I know Horizon Media is the best! But, how do you reverse course when a mistake is made?

Jason Lee:

Yeah.

Adam Katz:

And don't you agree that, if a mistake is made but it sticks to your brand from an authentic and a consistent place, it can actually sometimes help you be a winner.

Jason Lee:

Yeah, entirely.

Adam Katz:

It’s a strange concept.

Jason Lee:

Absolutely, absolutely.

Adam Katz:

It could turn into a win.

Jason Lee:

Yeah, and I kid. I think you have to make mistakes and you will. You have to accept that nobody can predict the future and nobody does everything perfectly. 

We're operating in a world that's not just complicated and becoming increasingly complex, right? It's like this vortex of information that went on a trajectory that's just like it's not stopping. It's been going on for years and years. 

So, the key here is to be flexible and nimble, understand what your priorities are, try to prepare as best you can, have your best foundational go-to action strategy, understand your process, who are you pulling in, what are the data you are using, what are what are your five different options in terms of how you respond or don't respond and move forward with that.

Adam Katz:

You know, maybe a good way to close this out is a discussion about ROI — driving leads in sales versus driving awareness. But when you look at authenticity and consistency in today's world, it takes time to show people you're being meaningful, that you care about them and where you're going. 

So, what do you do when a brand is coming to you right now and they're saying, listen, I'm not driving the sales I want — and you're looking at them and thinking, but you are driving the thing you actually want, and that will come over time? How do you start to balance that conversation?

Jason Lee:

It's tough. As an industry we are at the relatively nascent stages of doing that. What we will need to consider is that it is no longer about, nor can it only be about, dollars and cents. But there's what I would call a cultural or a social currency that we need to consider as well. We've seen this. You could have a brand that is doing incredibly well. The wrong thing is said or done and immediately, cancel culture. People pull back. And even if it's not widely seen and it's all over social media, you can see revenue dip because people would rather go with brand X versus brand Y because they don't believe in the way that that brand had actually done something.

Adam Katz:

And I think one of the challenges is — you and I have had this conversation in the past — we talk about the definition of safety, suitability. Obviously, our platform centered around the concept of mentality. I think ultimately the biggest challenge for all of us is that all the definitions are different to pretty much everybody. Do you think it would be helpful if your clients and you had strict definitions that you both agreed upon?

Jason Lee:

Yeah.

Adam Katz:

Right. And kind of got to a place where you guys were comfortable with those definitions? 

Jason Lee:

Yeah, I think it's two things. It's important to have a foundation, a process, structure from which to make those decisions. And the decisions themselves need to be customized for an individual brand's needs. What are their priorities? Where, you know, where do they mean? What does this look like?

So, the definition is that. You need that structure to work with and then customize it for clients overall and then stick with it. Like there's a big part of it where we can't be a brand, an agency, an industry. You can't be flip flopping. You need to understand the potential, the trajectory, the way that things could go good or bad, be able to pivot, but really understand that you're going to take a stand to lean in. Or not. And really understand what your corporate ethos are and stand behind them.

Adam Katz:

So I'm going to put you on the spot for a second.

Jason Lee:

Sure.

Adam Katz:

I’m going to give you three things. Who would you say is a great brand doing this? Who would you say is a great person doing this? And what would you say you've made a decision yourself in your life because of something like this.

Jason Lee:

That is an incredibly difficult question. To be honest with you, I hate to take the escape from this. No brands come to mind that are doing this perfectly. But again, in the spirit of failure, that's a tough word. But being able to take some failures, learn from it, and grow and improve in the future. Some brands are learning to do that better than others. Even if we look at Kanye and Adidas and what more recently happened.

Adam Katz:

How slow they moved to move out of it.

Jason Lee:

How slow they moved to move out of it. The lack of decision or the perception of a lack of decision, one could argue that that eroded the brand health of Adidas day by day, hour by hour. Without working at Adidas, working with them directly, you have to believe that they learned something from this and that they're going to evolve their process, their decision process, their strategic partnerships or what have you in the future. Because absolutely, they start looking at the data. They see that. Right.

Adam Katz:

I would say for sure, I mean, and what about in your day to day, have you made a decision based on your mentality.

Jason Lee:

I have, me, myself personally, yeah. I don't know if I necessarily believe in cancel culture in the way I work with… 

Adam Katz:

Neither do I.

Jason Lee:

…brands or the way that I make purchase decisions or what have you. But I do pay attention to what brands do, how they respond, how they show up in the world.

Just like you meet a human being, you have an interview, you go on a date, you understand who that person is, what their energy is, what their background is, and you know what their vision is for the future. 

Brands are the same. It's all about relationships and the relationship that we have with the clothes we wear, where we eat, what we shop, what we tag on our Instagram posts, there's brand pride. And that's a representation of us as consumers. Some brands, for some people, that's closer than others. The way that we associate with those brands. But regardless, even if it's subconscious or inherent, you're, that's a representation of you. So it's important that we understand what our brand stands for and how we go forward.

Every day I'm making decisions. I think, not always consciously, like, where did I get my breakfast sandwich this morning? I'm thinking, what did they post last week? You know, I'm not thinking that, but it's a representation. And you want to be in good company

Adam Katz:

One of the points you're making and we'll close out our first Breaking Through the Mayhem podcast with this amazing guest, Jason Lee. I think what you're hearing today is that ultimately, you don't make decisions consciously on every single move that you make, but the size of the moment, the amount of volume that happens from the moment and how fast it picks up is ultimately a lot of what we're discussing today. And the ability to bifurcate your risk and opportunity becomes pretty clear.

You've given us some unbelievable information. And I want to thank you for joining me.

Jason Lee:

Absolutely. Thanks, Adam and thank you all. I think as we talk through and we all partner in the future, it's incredibly important to make sure that we have the right information and that there's a collaboration. To be able to kind of work together as an industry, as partners, to prepare as best as we can in this world.