Balancing Data-Driven Decisions with Marketing Agility

Join Marissa Price as she sits down with Jamie Seltzer, Global EVP of CSA & MX Analytics at Havas Media Network, for a candid conversation about navigating the ever-evolving digital advertising landscape. In this enlightening discussion, Jamie shares invaluable insights on balancing data-driven decision making with the need for agility in today's fast-paced market.

Discover how Havas is reimagining personalization at scale while respecting privacy concerns, and learn about their innovative "Three C's" framework - Connection, Content, and Context - that's reshaping how brands engage with audiences. Jamie offers a fresh perspective on the pendulum swing between audience and contextual targeting, and discusses why being "future ready" beats being "future proof" in today's dynamic media environment.

Key takeaways include:

• How to thrive (not just survive) in an industry where change is the only constant
• Practical approaches to balancing measurement rigor with speed-to-market opportunities
• Strategic insights on global expansion and cross-market learnings from Havas's recent growth
• A compelling look at how culture is reshaping media strategy and brand experiences

Whether you're managing campaigns, developing media strategies, or leading brand initiatives, this episode offers actionable insights on evolving your approach to meet tomorrow's challenges while driving results today.

TRANSCRIPT

Marissa Price
Okay. Hi, everyone. Welcome to this podcast Breaking Through the Mayhem. Very excited to welcome Jamie for episode 23. Now welcome, Jamie.

Jamie Seltzer
Thank you so much for having me.

Marissa Price
Oh we're excited. So Jamie Seltzer is the global EVP of CSA and Analytics at Havas Media. We know that our industry is no stranger to an acronym, but maybe you can help us break that down a little bit.

Tell us a little bit more about what it means, your role, your team's role, and how that kind of fits within the broader Havas agency.

JAMIE
Yeah, absolutely. Gotta love a title that has two acronyms in it. so I'll, I'll break it down into two pieces. So, CSA is our group within Havas that really focuses on consulting with clients around data analytics and technology.

So we are sort of the consultancy that helps clients understand, you know, what their business challenges are and how they can solve them, leveraging different data pieces, different analytical techniques, different advanced models, or the implementation and running of, martech and adtech. so that's the CSA piece and then the MX analytics piece. So MX is media experiences.

It's a core piece of how Havas engages with clients and makes sure that the media that we are bringing to consumers on behalf of our advertisers are meaningful and are driving better, meaningful media experiences. I focus on the analytics and the measurement piece of that, really kind of helping to make sure that we are being data driven at the core of all of our media experiences that we put out there. And we are able to measure with rigor.

Marissa Price
Perfect. Awesome. Okay. So thank you. That's really helpful background. You know, one of the things that struck me in our catch up before today in getting, getting our, our i’s dotted and our T's crossed were getting together to have this chat, which I'm really excited about just in general, was how many parallels there were between how evolution of our space and the changes that we're seeing.

And it feels like that's really picking up. But how that's impacting you, your team, your agency, and how many again, like those common themes that we're feeling too, on our side even as a technology data media company. Right. So I think it's really interesting that there's a lot of challenges that we're seeing, but also opportunities coming out of it.

And it really does apply across the board wherever you sit in the industry. So I'm definitely excited to dig into that a little bit, explore that further with you. And for our listeners to kind of hear, you know, how is it affecting different people and in different roles in different parts of our space? Because it's an exciting time. But it's also, you know, not without its challenges of navigating a lot of different changes and what that all means.

Jamie Seltzer
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I was saying to somebody the other day that, like in our business, and I think it's probably true for many businesses, but especially in ours, you know, the only constant is change. And I think, you know, every day there's a news story, there's a, you know, something new comes out, whether it's a new piece of technology, you know, or we're deprecating something, we're building something new.

We've got new ways of measuring. There's, you know, limited tracking and greater, you know, greater tracking and context and all the things. But I think, you know, it's constantly changing. But I think, honestly, the way that agencies thrive is sort of in change and in evolving with the times, with the industry and helping clients navigate through that.

And, and part of that really goes to, you know, especially in the area that I focus on in, in data and analytics and tech, it's, it's how are we evolving our capabilities, our services, our products, and also our people to sort of meet those changing needs. So, you know, if you think about analytics, when I started in sort of the analytics data strategy space, I'm not even going to name how many years, how many years?

That's been a long time ago. it really was focused on, primarily on reporting, you know, and, and reporting around, you know, pretty especially in digital, like, you know, counts of things, how many impressions, how many conversions, how many clicks? and it was really kind of focused on delivery of media and things like that.

You know, and as we've evolved, as the industry's evolved and, you know, as, as, we've evolved as agencies, you know, we're spending so much more time thinking about the impact on business outcomes. And yes, delivery is obviously still important. We are a media agency. We want to deliver on media goals. But ultimately, how are media delivery goals tied to a client's actual business goals?

How are we driving their business forward? And part of that goes beyond delivery. It goes into measuring business outcomes. It goes into measuring, you know, the success of a client's business overall. and what is the impact? Or now, more often than not, talking about the incremental impact of, you know, media and marketing to a client's business outcomes.

So that's kind of the first. I feel like evolution and kind of adjustment that we've changed and shifted in terms of, you know, our responsibilities and our work with clients. but I also think that there's been a shift in our roles as well. And I would say, you know, if you if you asked me ten years ago if I the amount of time I spent, you know, talking to clients about, legal things as in data privacy compliance, you know, you know, data security was as great as it is now.

I would not have believed you. I think that, you know, for me, and so many people on our team and and who do what, what we do, a core part of our job actually is now rooted in, like, legal foundations. What do you know? And both from a privacy regulation perspective, understanding regulations, especially for me in, in a global role, the regulations that are exist in different countries and how we, how we adhere to them and how we advise clients on, on how they balance, driving results for their business with respect for laws, respect for consumer privacy.

so, you know, very much thinking about the, the balance of, of, you know, what are the different regulations, but also what are consumers want, what do they want to see? We talked a minute ago about the media experience part of my job. But the you know, the media experience is all about what is a good experience for consumers.

And we have to do that while respecting the choices that they're making, not just what the government says we have to do what any given government says we have to do, but what consumers want from us, how do they want to hear from, from an advertiser? What kind of personalization is acceptable to them and things like that.

So, you know, it's really our roles as, you know, as a sort of analytics professionals and data professionals. And the industry has changed. So much in the last ten, 15, 20 years, that it looks nothing like it did when I, when I started.

Marissa Price
Yeah. I think we're feeling a lot of those similar like I said, parallels even on our side. Right. As a media data tech company, the definition of analytics has certainly evolved to your point, reporting not going away, always going to be a huge piece of what we do. But that was certainly very much at the core and center of all things analytics for precisely if you look back, you know, 5 or 6 years ago.

But to your point now, it really is about how do you look across multiple data sources, how do you incorporate those, use it to enrich data and to make bigger business decisions and more encompassing marketing decisions? Then, you know, maybe paid media in a silo. So we're definitely feeling that shift, too.

Jamie Seltzer
Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, I think even if you look at the world of like attribution, something, you know, we went from when we were, you know, a bunch of years ago and it was sort of before the digital heyday and everything was very traditional and TV and, you know, linear TV and print and things like that.

You know, we looked at measurement really around market based modeling, and then digital came in and everything was, you know, the Holy Grail was like, can everything be attributed? and now we're sort of the pendulum is swinging back to that sort of middle ground where, yes, we want to understand the contribution of different channels, of different tactics, of different partners and things like that to overall business, business success.

But, you know, we need to do it through a combination of, of ways of methodologies. You know, it's a combination of market mix modeling with some things like what we're doing, which we're calling, you know, multi incrementality modeling and really kind of an attribution plus. MMM where it's available, it's been a really interesting time to evolve and to push forward for our clients.

Marissa Price
Yeah I love what you said about the, the idea of like yes we've always had to stay on top of regulation. We're feeling that too for sure. Those things are changing more rapidly than ever as well. and maybe it used to be enough just to respect, you know, what was mandated by law or government intervention. But to your point, now there's more control that consumers have too.

And there's also a different level of expectation that says like, yes, respect my wishes as far as how you track me, how you target me, and the type of experiences that you're creating that consumers have so many options now for, for how they consume that you really do need to respect those guardrails that they've chosen for themselves, let alone what is is in place from a regulatory perspective.

So we definitely feel that too. and to your point, that plays a much bigger role than ever, as far as you know. Now we're in the mindset when we're thinking about partnerships or new data sources. Okay. Like what are your compliance regulations. Right. How are you stacking up. What are the certifications? We need certifications that are very different than six years ago to make sure we're expecting any data that we're, either collecting or leveraging and using it, you know, within the right parameters so that that concept is definitely one that resonates for us as well.

Jamie Seltzer
Yeah. I mean, I just, I, I used to joke that, like, I feel like I could be a data data protection officer at this point, and that was definitely not in the career trajectory. If you had asked me 15 years ago,

Marissa Price
Could we add a new acronym to the end of your name?

Jamie Seltzer
Yeah, exactly. We're going to add DPO. I'm going to pass my DPO exam. And then we're going to add DPO.

Marissa Price
Perfect.

Jamie Seltzer
I think that that's just what your title is missing. Exactly. One more acronym out.

Marissa Price
Perfect. yeah. Okay. So I do actually want to know, we talked about the evolution of the space of your role. I do want to pinpoint, you know, in a second, if there is one big change that you think is driving things.

But before we do that, I also want to give our listeners an opportunity to get to know you a little bit better. Hey, so we are going to we're we're in the Thanksgiving spirit. We're all feeling it right now. So I think it would be fun to take a little quiz together. You on board?

Jamie Seltzer
Yeah. I'm in.

Marissa Price
All right. Perfect. So we are going to take a quiz, the BuzzFeed quiz. Our listeners can follow along. and it's going to take us through. You're going to choose six different favorite versions of your dessert pipes. Along with a drink you would most want to go along with it. Right? Then we're going to crunch the numbers to a statistically significant complete accuracy.

We're going to predict your what Thanksgiving food most aligns with your personal ity. okay. So we're going to we'll sprinkle the questions.

Jamie Seltzer
I feel like I'm back in high school again taking taking quizzes.

Marissa Price
That was my inspiration. Like 90s magazine quiz.

Jamie Seltzer
Exactly.

Marissa Price
There we go. So we will get those questions answered throughout our time together here. And at the end we will reveal the results. So all right we're going to start with you're going to pick your favorite cake from these six options. Ready. All okay. An M&M themed cake vanilla and blackberry wedding which based on the picture is giving fig and maybe pistachio vibes. Okay, that changes anything for you. Caramel cake? a cherry cheesecake or a mocha tiramisu style cake.

Jamie Seltzer
Interesting. So I will. I will admit I'm not a huge cake person, so this category probably isn't. Wouldn't be the one that I chose.

Marissa Price
You're going to have lots of other choices.

Jamie Seltzer
Yes, I have a feeling that there will be, I will, I will have greater I will have greater opinions in other categories. But I think, I don't know, I'm going to go M&M cake.

Marissa Price
It's fun. It's whimsical. I love M&MS MAR Perfect. I have to tell you, that would probably be my choice as well.

Jamie Seltzer
They didn’t have an ice cream cake. Normally my choice would be an ice cream cake because I'm not a huge cake person and therefore you're kind of like cheating or you're going to. Yeah, so but that but that's okay, I will go M&M cake.

Marissa Price
Love it. Okay, we're going to get Mars on the line and see if we can get a sponsored chip deal and that. Perfect. Awesome. Okay, great. So now that that big important question is out of the way, we move to our our next area. So you had mentioned that you know your team's evolving keeping up with the space.

I love what you said about not just keeping up because our industry can be really very heavily focused sometimes on on risk mitigation, but there's also opportunity to be found in this. And I think you use the word thrive, right. How do we not only as an agency, as a tech data company, like how do you thrive in the change versus just sort of keep up with it?

So with that in mind, I would love to understand, as your team has shifted, how should prospective clients or even existing clients think about the challenges, the type of business solutions and answers that your team can help them solve? And how can they best involve your team in that process?

Jamie Seltzer
Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, you know, I think a lot of clients, they look at they look at consultancies like CSA or others and they and they in some ways they get overwhelmed.

I mean, there was some stat, I think, it was like 67% of CMOs are overwhelmed by the amount of data out there. And I think it's, you know, it's I think it can also be a little bit daunting and, not just overwhelming in terms of the sheer volume of data, but like, daunting in terms of what do we need to do?

Where do we start? What do you know? And also, you know, I think clients can sometimes feel like, well, I'm not you know, I'm not, you know, maybe the most sophisticated client in terms of collecting first party data and doing all of these things. So like, can I really should I really engage with a group that, you know, really is focused around the use of data and the implementation of data and analytics?

And, and I think the biggest thing that we try and talk to clients about is it is really, you know, figuring out what the journey looks like. And it also doesn't mean that you have to be expert in you don't have to get to, you know, number one, most sophisticated in every single facet of the business, especially not on day one.

I think, you know, for us, when we talk to clients, it's very much about where are you now in terms of like what data are you using, what day did you have? What analytics techniques are you using? Are you doing it yourself? Are you relying on third parties? What technology have you bought into and is it helping like take up, take a step back and like level set of where are you and then where do you want to get to?

What kind of company would he you know, what kind of company do you aspire to be? Who you know. And then it's up to us as the consultants to help you figure out how to get there. And I think, you know, so for us, it's about being approachable in, you know, and a partner with our clients in this journey.

So it's yes, of course we have the capabilities to, you know, implement a whole bunch of technology and run, you know, incrementality models and run marketing mix models and, and do you know, greater, you know, budget planning and growth analyzes. But ultimately it's about where does the client want to get to and how long do they want to take to get there.

And then we put together a roadmap and we help them figure out what it is. And maybe that's an evaluation of their current marketing technology stack and, you know, figuring out redundancies, of which most clients have a lot of them, or, you know, gaps that are there that, you know, that it maybe it's a, a real a lack of first party data, but a desire to be more connected with your consumer.

So, you know, what is the strategy there. So it's it's about putting together that kind of strategic plan. And then for us, you know, I think where we as, as a, as an agent coming from an agency heritage and really kind of living and breathing the agency world, it's about then not just ending with a set of recommendations and saying, okay, cool here client.

Here are ten recommendations. Good luck to you. but really being able to put that in place and it's, you know, working with, you know, having deep relationships with all sorts of partners, having experience and credentials and certifications in a bunch of platforms. but really being able to kind of implement the recommendations that we put forward, iterate with clients over time.

I mean, I think the reality is also having our media background, you know, working with, with, you know, companies like sightly and others for, for so long, we can then say, okay, you want to try, you know, try this area. Let's put together a learning agenda. Let's even if we're not running the media for a client, because we've worked with clients who in-house their media work with another media partner, just having that background and that connection to the industry, to the changes to the media partners, to the technology partners.

It allows us to put together and implement more actionable recommendations. then I think, you know, we often see with, with others, but, you know, really it's it's helping clients navigate. It's not one size fits all. It's helping clients navigate the, the, the evolution for their business, no matter where they're starting, whether they're completely nascent and looking at foundational to, you know, foundational elements to to improve their data strategy and their and their practice or, you know, they're well on their way of their journey, but they feel like they may not be, you know, investing in the right places or in the right tools.

So it you know, it's kind of that balance. But I think you know, as a, as a, as a group within an agency that really kind of focuses on consulting with clients to, to solve the problems. That's how we really kind of help help our clients solve and change and evolve over time. MAR Yeah, that makes sense. I think it's a really fair point that it's unrealistic to expect everyone to be an expert in everything.

Right? And to your point, it can be really intimidating to try to tackle all of that. So that's a great, you know, starting point and a level set for teams that are working with you, brands that are working with you to say, hey, it's okay not to know everything, but, you know, here's really where we have a gap or we're struggling to answer these types of business questions and to rely on your expertise to round that out and work with them.
Like you said, iterate over time. That takes partnership. It takes collaboration, and sometimes it needs the time and a space to let that really grow into something amazing. So that makes a lot of sense. okay, so it sounds like you are able to solve more problems than ever, and it's probably worth mentioning that now you can also solve more problems in more in more markets than ever too.

Right,, congrats on your recent expansion. So what's the latest with your team? I know you guys have sort of gone global. So what does that look like for you now. JAM Yeah. Thank you. So it's been really fun I mean you know so so we you talk talking ten years ago you know, we had the capabilities to, you know, run data analytics and technology in each of our markets.

But they were really kind of limited to a local market to local client kind of engagement. and it wasn't really a connected group. And then about, one, about two years, two years ago, 18 months ago, give or take, we launched CSA as a global network brand. So we launched with 12 markets, which was really exciting.

in like June 2023, which was super exciting because it really meant that we could bring all of the pockets of expertise within the organization together. They work together, they share ideas, they share, you know, kind of they also help you know, they each help each other kind of solve challenges and solve problems. And we learn from each other.

And it's really more of a network and a community. And then over the last year, we have launched, in six more markets, which is really exciting. The most recent being in, we launched in India and in the Middle East, based out of Dubai, in mid-October. So that was really exciting. It was it was actually I got to I got to go both places, which was personally very exciting.

But also really, I think, eye opening to me because, you know, as somebody who's based in North America and spends most of my days, working with, you know, North America, sort of clients in the Americas and clients in Europe, it was really interesting to go and understand the opportunities and the challenges in, you know, in a completely different market in a market like India and in a market like in the region, like the Middle East, and especially in the UAE, partly because there's so much differing tech, not just different technology, but but, you know, ways of ways of being.

I mean, it's funny, when I was in India, there there is a government centralized government payment system, basically the equivalent of like a Venmo. but it is government backed, and we used it to buy like street market, like bracelets and gifts for my kids and things like that. And it is, so there's no cash. There's like almost no cash at all.

I mean, I think that we are generally cashless, but this is this is public sector. and it's, you know, it doesn't matter what you know, you don't have to have you know, the bank account. You don't have to have the credit card and all the things. It was just it's fascinating that the, the, the way that technology is used and, and that opens up a lot of doors to how we can engage with consumers and what kinds of data is collected and different thoughts around privacy and stuff like that.

So it's it's just a really for us, it's been really interesting and an eye opening for me personally and, and also really great for us to be able to take learnings from other markets and kind of share them with, you know, North America team or with European teams to think about how we can, potentially, you know, really expand some of the stuff that we're doing in different markets.

So, really excited to have launched multiple markets this year. We're up to 18, this year, and we're going to expand even further. I think we're going to do anywhere between 4 and 7 more markets next year in 2025.

Marissa Price
Congratulations. That's a big deal. That's really exciting, big expansion. and probably a lot like you said, you can learn so much both personally.

Like that's that's always amazing. But it does tip over right to see okay. Well what do regulations look like here. What do the different ways of doing business look like here. And what does it look like overseas. And you know that crossover that teams can learn and collaborate from each other really is interesting and probably also helps us, you know, maybe futureproof a little bit in some instances too, when it comes to what to expect as far as shifts.

Jamie Seltzer
Yeah, absolutely. I think I think we have a lot of learnings in terms of, you know, also, you know, kind of this idea of optionality, you know, I think, you know, this idea of optionality and being able to as, you know, as as the industry changes, as landscape changes, as regulations change, we need to have that flexibility and that agility to go into, you know, different partners, different tactics, different ways of working, you know, and so I think having that breadth of scale across all of these different markets allows us to learn from markets where maybe certain things aren't allowed or, you know, we haven't we have a CSA in China where there are a lot of technologies that we use in the rest of the world that that clients can't use in China. So how do we, you know, how do we solve for those challenges there? so I think that's a really big piece of why we want to open up, you know, these other markets and also just, you know, scale for service and global clients.

It's important that we're able to offer consistency. you know, in terms of methodology, in terms of, you know, working with the same group in different places, it's it's really important for global clients to to have that consistency. And so, you know, that's part of, you know, our excitement about being able to open up the CSA offices in different markets.

Marissa Price
Yeah. That's great okay. So we talked about evolution more broadly. and how that's impacting things. But if you had to pinpoint one big shift in our space, whether it's something that you think is kind of going to pop up surprisingly out of nowhere, or maybe something that we've already seen a little bit, get some trajectory, and maybe you think it's going to hit an inflection point soon that's really going to have a big impact, whether it be on your team, Havas, more broadly, companies like Sightly, or even your, your advertisers, your brands, you know, whoever it might be, if you had to pick one thing, what would it be?

Jamie Seltzer
Oh, God. I mean, I feel like the answer I should give is like, AI, but the end. Truly. But I think the answer I truly want to give is really about, like personalization, but like scaled personalization that is also compliant or like, you know, I guess I guess the way I'm thinking about it is like what we were talking about earlier sort of results with respect, this idea that like personalizing content and experiences for consumers, but balancing what it is they want to see and balancing regulations, you know, it. And a lot of that is it. It ties in with AI because a lot of it is enabled by AI. And, you know, we're able to do those things faster. But to me, AI isn't a trend. To me, AI is a is an enabler of the things that, you know, that that, that we want to put out in the world.

And so for me, you know, we've done that personalization for a long time. And it was always this, you know, right message to the right person at the right time, blah, blah, blah. But and I think that was sort of the that was the Holy Grail. That was the thing that everyone was striving for. And I, you know, I would I would argue that we never really fully achieved it.

And now with the changing in, you know, in, in cookies and identity and stuff like that, I think it's about how do we personalize content, and personalized messaging for consumers. But it may not be 1 to 1 and it may not be, you know, it's going to be a balance. It's about finding that balance in that scale.

Because one of the issues with major issues with personalization previously is that, you know, when you're doing 1 to 1, there's there's that scale there, and it's it's pretty expensive. I mean, even with, you know, AI and genAI and creative and all of that, it's still expensive to to create all of those messages. So I think it's about finding that balance in personalization.

I guess that's what it would be. It would be finding that balance in personalization where we are leveraging all the technology that's available to us. And that could be AI. Things like machine learning and AI is ability to, you know, identify audiences and identify relevant content. even AI’s ability to like, create relevant messaging. But really it's all in service of personalized vision for, you know, for consumers and and to at a scale that works for advertisers.

you know, and kind of evolving what personalization means. And I think that's kind of the balance there that that I think is, is what I see sort of coming, that we're kind of getting to is this balance, you know, between how personalized do I need to be and how personalized as a consumer want my the messaging to be, how personalized can we afford it to be?
And how do we do that with some sort of scale that makes it, you know, advantageous for business?

Marissa Price
Yeah, you sort of hit on that earlier to this idea of the pendulum swinging and right how we started off, if we think back to probably both you and I kind of got started in the industry and we won't get specific.

But right, there was this idea of maybe very broad personas, maybe just kind of like a demo focused maybe, you know, for me, I remember really being all about splashy content sponsorships. Right? And taking over the page and, and thinking that way. And then somewhere along the way, it, it swung very far over to audience targeting and only audience targeting and very hyper focused on cookies.

And how do you leverage that for that 1 to 1 personalization? So that really does make sense that you need to sort of settle somewhere in the middle where you can get the right message in front of a group or a cohort of of like minded people. and maybe you can do it in the places that are going to resonate, maybe, you know, content and is having a, a resurgence a little bit.

There be something to be said, right, for, for that message and where you are reaching consumers to so that that makes sense.

Jamie Seltzer
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, I think we used to be in this thing where like, oh, well, if it's the if the person is in market for a car, then they don't, you know, then then you can hit them with a car message no matter where they are.

They could be browsing, you know, it could be browsing for holiday cards. And you're going to hit me with a message for a new car. I don't, you know, I think that there's I think we've kind of as you said, you know, we've sort of been talking about this pendulum swinging. I think that, yes, if I'm if I'm in the market for a new car, yes.

I'm receptive to that message. Probably I have to be in the right frame of mind. I have to be in that right context. That doesn't mean that you only send it to me when I am, you know, looking at, you know, a car and driver. You know, I'm, I'm researching, but, you know, am I really going to be receptive to it when I'm trying to bang out the holiday car that I'm late on and that I'm, you know, I'm trying to, you know, all of those things that I'm like trying to get this done.

And am I really going to be receptive to a new car message? No, I think that there's some context. There's definitely a contextual element in there that we kind of forgot a little bit about or threw out the window a little bit when we were talking about super hyper personalization. but I think it's, you know, it goes back to that balance.

It goes back to finding, you know, the right time to put it in front of the right context, to put it in front of the person, where they are receptive or where they're even looking, you know, at, at a certain point, I know I use the Christmas, the holiday card, example because I am currently trying to figure out holiday cards, and I can tell you that I am solely focused when I am on that web page of only trying to figure out my holiday card, and I have no interest in anything else that you want to show me.

Marissa Price
Yeah, you said blinders are on, right?

Jamie Seltzer
You got to get it done.

Marissa Price
Yeah, I want to come back to that because I do, you know, want to talk more about from a strategic perspective and planning perspective and where CSR gets involved and, and how you balance those factors. But, for a second, I want to step back to this concept of like that pendulum swinging changes happening.

How do you think agencies like yours or people in the space in general, can best prepare for, whether it's that specific change or just in general, stay more agile, and more nimble to be ready for kind of whatever comes our way. you mentioned the idea of thriving in the change earlier. So how do we best set ourselves up for success to, to manage that, and find opportunity in it?

Jamie Seltzer
Yeah, I think it's, it's hard. I mean, I think honestly, it's it's a you kind of have to adopt this, like, sort of mindset of agility and which is hard in big organizations, especially, like it's not so easy to be agile, but I think it's this mindset of agility. And also I would say, you know, and I say this as a as a data and measurement person, we need, you know, learning agendas.

We need to test and learn our way into things. It's and it's important to also be, you know, be flexible in that. Yes, there needs to be rigor around our testing plans. There needs to be, you know, measurement and KPIs set up from the start and all of those things. But I think, you know, I think in order to be ready and, you know, we talk about future proofing and I don't think there's any way to like truly future proof because we don't know what's happening.

We don't know what's going to come. We we can guess. We have some ideas of the direction, but like things change all the time. And, you know, I think we our industry is constantly evolving. And so I wouldn't say it's future proof, but I would be I'd say it's future ready. and part of that is, you know, by by agility and, and and putting in place, you know, learning agendas where we have questions that we want to answer and we set up ways to do that.

We set up methodologies, we set up tests, we test new partners. We, you know, and then the other thing I would say is we don't just test them once we test, we learn, we evolve, we iterate. Maybe something doesn't work right now, or maybe it doesn't work on a specific line of business, but it works on another line of business.

I think we just, you know, the thing that I, the thing that I, I try really hard to fight against is this idea that, oh, that didn't work for us once. We'll never do it again. I think that's something, you know, partly because whatever that is, whatever the thing is, we tried. I'm sure it has evolved over the last six, nine months, 12 months, two years.

I mean, you know, you have, you know, you have a platform that has been evolving. I saw it three months ago, and then I saw it a couple weeks ago, and then I saw it, you know, two days ago. And, and it's evolved so much. And it's because, you know, we're all kind of changing and adapting with that pace of change.

And so I think it's important that we set up these questions we want to answer. We set up rigorous learning agendas with measurement frameworks. We continue to test and learn and iterate. And we don't just write something off because maybe it didn't work once. We need to, you know, keep trying them. I think that, you know, that brings us back to this idea of, you know, contextual.

Well, people wrote off contextual for a long time, and it changed. It evolved, it iterated. So did the landscape. And now we're back. And I think it's important for us to to to think about that. That's to me how clients get ready. I mean ultimately it's that and like thinking about where your business wants to go and putting together a roadmap and, you know, kind of really a true kind of, you know, strategic plan, but but also in that it has to be flexible.

We have to be able to change. We cannot be rigid, because the industry won't let us.

Marissa Price
Yeah. I love that distinction. Future proof versus future ready. That's a really, a really good way to think about it, right? Nothing's guaranteed. We can't predict the future. We're getting better at it. We're absolutely. We talk about predictive analytics a lot more now than we did three years ago.

I'm sure that's true for you guys too. But yeah, you can't, you can't get it exactly right every time. So the idea of being ready for the change versus knowing exactly what to expect, I love that. Okay, we've gotten to our second dessert category. Okay. Pick your favorite cookie. Chocolate chip. Double chocolate. All right. Rainbow sprinkle.

shortbread Oreos or white chocolate pecan.

Jamie Seltzer
Oh, goodness. It's it's either chocolate sprinkle or shortbread. I'm like, I, I don't know, I'm going. Chocolates. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm going sprinkle. Rainbow sprinkle regular rainbow sprinkle. That's what is rainbow sprinkle. No chocolate okay. The answer. They're also the most fun to make. I love it.

Marissa Price
Yeah. And they're pretty. Awesome okay great. So we talked about audience evolution of how we think about audience. How we think about targeting. and we've also talked about how technology has played an updated role in that. How do you think about tools that can best assist you in that process? I know at one point when we've chatted, we talked about, yes, there's there's finding the right audience, but then there's also finding this idea of white spaces and audiences that maybe you didn't consider before.

Are there tools that can help you best navigate that? and are those tools that your team has hands on keyboards with, or are you part of the evaluation process when it comes to identifying what type of solutions can be most impactful for your team or for other have ask planning teams, and what are the criteria that help you sort of kind of manage through all the options that are available?

Jamie Seltzer
Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's a it's a balance. I mean, you know, agencies, agencies create a ton of tools. It's, we create a ton of tools and we created and a lot of that is for internal working and to make sure that we're more efficient. And we're bringing, you know, I mean, Havas has a platform called converge, which brings in a bunch of data and allows us to find audiences and, you know, from syndicated data all the way through to, you know, kind of activation behavioral data.

and, and so we have a ton of tools that we use as an agency on a regular basis. you know, there's also partner tools that, that we, that we partner with, that we white label that we, you know, leverage, you know, I know the teams, you know, use Sightly in, in the North America team, you know, to, to help support, kind of audience creation identification.

and I think it's important for us to, use sort of a breadth of, of tools, no matter what it is, whether it's you know, whether it's around audience creation, whether it's around measurement. I think this idea of white space is really interesting because, there's a lot of what we, you know, a lot of what my team spends time doing is trying to find that white space.

And sometimes it's an audience, white space, sometimes it's an audience that we think, you know, based on a, because the work that the CSA team does is focused primarily on kind of advanced in this space, sort of advanced data science and analytics and measurement. And so sometimes we'll get, clients, you know, first party data list and, you know, first party data lists and be able to find, audience and segmentation within that first party data.
What is the lifetime value of those audiences, and how do we segment that list based on lifetime value? And, you know, find and identify other common attributes of those, you know, high lifetime value audiences. And how do we find more people like that? So, you know, part of that is about identifying and clustering. And then this white space idea, sometimes it has to do with audiences, and sometimes it has to do with, you know, media placement, i.e. we don't want to be always in the same place that all of our, you know, our advertisers don't always want to be in the same place that all of their competitors are.

You kind of end up sometimes in a sea of same, so that white, you know, we want to try and help find that white space and that could be a new market, that could be a new channel, that could be a new partner or publisher, that could be a new audience. But it's it's about kind of using that analytical rigor to try and find a place where your message will break through, in, in a, in a different way or in a new way, or reach new audience.

So I think there's definitely tools that we use, whether they are third party tools or tools that we've built or methodologies that we've used to try and identify some of that. that white space, you know, from a measurement perspective, we also use a ton of tools that we've created to look at kind of we talked before about incremental value of media and marketing and, you know, kind of going beyond basic reporting to really understand business impact.

I mean, these are, you know, all tools that we have in our arsenal as, as agencies. and I think, you know, through, through our own proprietary stuff, through our partnership, you know, with, with, with third parties, you know, our goal is to, synthesize all of this into a recommendation that, makes sense for, for our clients because ultimately that's why it's what it's why brands and advertisers hire agencies in the first place is because, you know, is is to is to bring a recommendation that is a synthesis of our own inherent knowledge, our own tools, our own data, partnership and partner information, you know, rigorous analytics, all of that needs to come together to, to put forward a recommendation that we believe will will drive business and will work for our clients to help them meet their goals.

So, you know, that's that's the kind of thing that that we think about when we're, you know, when, when we are using tools and ultimately, you know, a tool is, is sort of it's only as good as its usage as the data that's in it, as its utilization.

I mean, you can have the best tool in the world. And we've done we've seen this because adoption is really hard. Generally in terms of tool usage and rollout. you can have the tool with the best data in the world and the most rigorous analytics, but if people don't understand it, don't know how to use it, don't understand its value, or really just like haven't adopted it, that's like if it's not integrated into the process by which we we come to these recommendations for clients, it just isn't going to get used.

And so that's like to me, it's almost less about the tool itself and more about how do we talk about the value and how do we integrate it into, you know, the daily usage. That's what brings its value to the forefront.

Marissa Price
Yeah. And that's a huge factor for us that we're thinking about more than ever. Absolutely. You can have to your point, the best tool that's out there.

But if there's a perception or a truth to the fact that onboarding and ease of adoption just isn't there, you're only going to get so far. for us, we've seen that play out. You know, one of our big value props and things that we believe is really important is navigating all of your whether it's your audiences, whether it's content, whether it's culture.

It's really important to navigate it through a brand very specific perspective. And to do that, you need to know what your brand's perspective is. And that requires a little bit of upfront thinking, a little bit of game planning so that you can be consistent when you do go to market and make authentic decisions and how you want to message and and market to your consumers.

So we asked our clients to really give some thought in the form of our brand profile with that. Right. And like, what does all that look like? So further downstream you can make quick and consistent decisions, but that upfront work takes a little bit of time. And we've had to be sensitive to the fact that as a platform, our role is to either make our clients jobs easier, faster or with an enhanced output.

Right. Ideally, you do more than just one of those things. So you need to get past this idea that ease of use just isn't there for us. That's where Gen AI comes in a lot with the

Jamie Seltzer
The gen AI that you guys have, input it into your, into your tool that helps fill in all of the information and just gives like people something to react to as opposed to having to start from scratch.

Genius. Because I can tell you that looking at a blank page and going, oh my God, I don't have time for this. Like I know

Marissa Price
It’s like sitting down to when in college to a paper that you haven't started yet. Yeah, exactly. So we're glad that it's resonating for for people like you. For sure. We we heard it loud and clear and and you're right.

I think that's been pretty game changing for how clients can work with us. So yeah, and I'm also happy that you and I have both hit on AI here a little bit because I'm pretty sure it's illegal at this point. to have it.
Jamie Seltzer
It wouldn't be a industry conversation these days without saying AI at least five times. I feel like we've hit it, but I don't know, it's probably a couple more times for good measure.

Marissa Price
Yeah, I'm sure we can sprinkle it throughout. Right? We can find a way. But exactly it does. To your point, it's an enabler, not a an outcome or a result. It's meant to make us all stronger at what we do.

So, it feels like it's playing that role right now, both for Sightly and and for you guys as well. So I think we're doing it right

Jamie Seltzer
I agree.

Marissa Price
Okay. We are up to our third category. It's not my favorite category.

Jamie Seltzer
Drumroll.

Marissa Price
Let's see, okay. Choose your favorite yogurt parfait.

Jam
Oh, interesting. Yeah. Perfect dessert.?

Marissa Price
I think it's a reach, but we're going to go with it. All right. Mixed berry. I say mango, banana, blueberry or peach?

Jamie Seltzer
I'm a traditionalist. I'm going mixed berry. Throw in a little granola and then we'll we'll we'll get there.

Marissa Price
A snack to hold you over to. Yeah, yeah I agree okay. Perfect. All right. So that brings us to maybe we can kind of think a little bit now about you have your best tools.

You have you know those those white spaces, maybe those audiences that you've identified. Now what? How do you help brands leverage their, their their media, spend their resources to make the best decisions for maximizing the impact that they can have? Right. What's the strategy for now, going after these audiences? You sort of hit on this idea of the message at the right time.

Maybe we're not nailing it just yet. As an industry, how do you think about that?

Jamie Seltzer
I mean, it's interesting. It's so so as part of we talked I talked about mixed media experiences before, and one of the core pieces of our media experience framework is something we called the three C's. and really that is, is around connection content and context.

So connection is, you know, are we finding the right people. And that's that could be loyalists, that could be white space that could be, you know, people who, you know, who we didn't think would, would convert. But we're actually seeing in the data are converting more than the ones we did. So you know, our the connection is all about, you know, are we connecting to the right people.

And then the next one is really about the content. And it's like, are we putting the right content in front of them? And that's, you know, is it personalized enough? Is it too personalized? Is it, you know, is is is the message right. And that's not just that's not just the copy. That's also the imagery that's also, you know, are they seeing themselves reflected in the advertising?

Are they, you know, is it is it you know, is it is it, kind of representative of them and their feelings and things like that? So it's, you know, what, how does the message, it's all about the messaging, the sort of package that it comes in. And then the last piece is context and it's like, are they in the right frame of mind?

Are they in the right mindset? Are they in the right? We were talking about it earlier with the holiday cards. Like, am I in the right mindset to see an advertisement for you know, a pair of shoes? Probably not. But like, you know, like trying to figure out the right context. And that's also, you know, becoming it's become which are the pendulum again, like we're swinging back in that idea of context.

The context is back. especially as especially as, you know, cookies go away, don't go away, start to go away. Or mostly, I mean, at this point, they're already like between 30 and 50% gone. So, you know, it's but context is so important and it's, you know, that's why we think about these sort of three C's connection, content and context holistically together.

It's somewhat of an evolution of right message, right person right time. But it's it's more it's it's a little bit less about, personalization and more about designing the right experience for a consumer, for a brand to have an impact. And that's, you know, it's that's really how we're thinking about, kind of maximizing that impact or sort of making it count, as you were saying.

Marissa Price
So for a little clarification, right, for listeners like content versus context, because a lot of times in our space when we say context contextual targeting, we mean where the ad actually is, right, like what the surrounding content is. Yeah. For you, that sounds like it's very frame of mind, which so it's both it's frame of mind, but it's also where it can also be, you know it.

Jamie Seltzer
This is where we get a lot of like research on attention. It's like frame of mind, but it's also where on the page, what's the surrounding content, what does it look like? So, mostly it's funny when we talk about usually we get the most confusion around content, because for us content is about message.

Marissa Price
That’s the distinction I'm trying to make.

Jamie Seltzer
Yeah. So for us content is about like when we think about the three C's connection content. Context content is more about the message. that we're that we're the content that we are putting out there, the message we're putting out there.

Marissa Price
The creative itself.

Jamie Seltzer
Exactly. The creative itself. The context is about frame of mind, but it's also about the context on the page.

Is it relevant to the things around it? Is it, somewhere that it's visible? Are people paying attention to it? We get into this discussion around kind of the, the attention, the sort of big debate about it around attention, which we feel, you know, are people attentive to the message, to where it's being seen and how it's being seen.

So that is the distinction between content and context. Content is the creative message. Context is where a consumer is seeing it and how they're thinking about it in the context of the overall, website or, you know, page that they're on or whatever that is.

Marissa Price
Which makes a lot of sense, because you can learn a lot from the page context.

Right? Let's I guess, make sure I'm being clear, the page content will tell you a lot about the mindset or the content or the user like. To your point, if if I'm in a, you know, I'm down a rabbit hole searching for ten minute recipes because I have to throw something together really quickly, it's probably not the time where I'm going to think about, oh, maybe I should take that vacation or or maybe it is the time that I'm going -
Jamie Seltzer
I don't know, it might be me, might be like, oh, a vacation Sunday.

Marissa Price
But yeah, okay. That helps clarify it. Thank you. Yeah. Great. Okay, cool. So the one thing I would, you know, maybe throw out there and we can, we can come back to this if there's time. Like the three C's feel like there might be some space to consider a fourth C, which would be culture, right?

I think that kind of hits that maybe that's overarching across all of all those C's. But we'll come back to that if we have time. But for now, we are going to choose our favorite donut.

Jamie Seltzer
Oh, I love donuts.

Marissa Price
Okay, donuts are my happy place and I'm right there with you. Okay, great. This is this is better than parfait.

So we have vanilla cake donut okay. Cinnamon sugar donut okay. Chocolate frosted with sprinkles okay. Strawberry frosted with sprinkles. Maple bacon and pistachio.

Jamie Seltzer
I know I tell my kids not to yuck somebody else's yum. But I can't do the strawberry. I think I'm going traditional. I am going to go cinnamon sugar because it makes me think of the apple cider donuts from when you go apple picking. and you always get those like warm apple, those warm apple cider donuts that are coated in cinnamon sugar. That's my that's my jam.

Marissa Price
Perfect. Yep. I completely agree. That's a great choice. I think that would probably I'm doing a quick browse. Yep, that probably my choice as well. So right there right. Yeah. Awesome. Okay so we're going to come back to the three C's for now.

And then maybe talk about the fourth one. But so we know audience, ad placement, content content they're all factors right I guess in this case we're talking specifically audience targeting versus contextual targeting. Right. The surrounding content on the page. How do you balance those two factors? Is there, a perfect weighting between those? Does it matter by vertical, by client, by outcome?

How do you think about those two. And sort of that pendulum swinging between the two?

Jamie Seltzer
I mean it's all everything differs by vertical by client, by client, you know, bite by by goal. You know, I mean especially, you know, branding, direct response. You know, it's you know, kind of down low as you move down the funnel. It's I would say, you know, there's so many different factors that play a role in deciding, you know, making those decisions.

I would say, you know, the biggest, one of the biggest things when it comes to kind of, targeting, especially as we as, as the industry changes, is what do we know about consumers, you know, like how beyond the fact of like, where are we in the funnel? What kind of campaign are we going, you know, are we going lower funnel campaign, upper funnel campaign?

Beyond that, we really think about, you know, how do we find the right consumers, how do we target them, how do we identify them and that have now that's even more confusing than it used to be. I would say, you know, we we we went all in on cookies and now we're scaling back, you know, and now the industry is scaling back and they're not entirely gone.

They don't plan on being entirely gone, probably ever at this point, because Google has made that announcement where they say, you know, that they're not going to deprecate cookies, they're going to leave it to the consumer to decide. And we've seen consumers history historically, we have seen consumers opt out of cookies more or opt out of being being tracked.

more often than not, I think there's I think the benchmarks are kind of global. Benchmark is like a 20% opt in rate. So like, you know, that's the expectation, I think where we're headed towards and with cookies and once once Google kind of puts us in place. But I think the biggest thing is like, what does that mean from an audience targeting perspective?

We're gonna we have to now and we're going to continue to have to find a balance between, you know, targeting via, known identifier, buyers target, you know, targeting on a client site with no with with first party data is very different than targeting out in the open web with known identifiers or, you know, we're finding people in the right context, contextual targeting, all of those things are going to have to play a role that's a balance.

And that's one of those kind of call it trial and error, call it test and learn things that we, you know, you need to, especially when working with a new client, you need to test your way into of what is that ideal balance, what's the right proportion of, you know, and also what's the scale of some of these things?

I mean, a lot of the identifiers, you know, are great, but like don't have the most, you know, don't have the the best scale at this point. They're still working on scale. So, you know, what's the point of diminishing returns when you use an identity use and identity partner. And what is the cost of using an identity partner.

And what does that do on your and your overall, you know, ROI or ROI, Roas or whatever, you know? So it's it's testing and learning your way into that balance and finding what, what is working and then continually testing it because things will change and things will evolve. And we'll have to kind of keep readjusting. But I think, you know, that balance of like content or, you know, audience targeting, you know, it just it's all about, you know, kind of using, using the available information we have and putting those tests in the market and really coming back with a, with a, a good balance that we continue to iterate on.

Marissa Price
Yeah. That makes sense. Great. So we talked about audience targeting. We talked about contextual targeting. I'm going to bring back that that fourth C out right. The idea of culture. And yeah I think if if you've met anybody at Sightly, at a a conference, heard anyone speak on a panel, sitting next to them at the bar ordering a drink, you probably know that we are huge believers that culture is a very big driving force in our industry now more than ever. So for us, yes, like we kind of talked about before, we are a risk averse industry. And, you know, naturally we have to be we're believers. That culture can also represent opportunity to create meaningful, long lasting brand to consumer relationships. that's why we think a lot about real time marketing.

We do talk about content. To your point, maybe that's almost like, personalization, but at a more aggregate level about how you think about topics that are trending and how you can communicate with groups of like minded consumers that are passionate about specific things and trends that are happening in our space and and across culture as a whole.

Is culture currently playing a role for Havas in how you think about advising clients when it comes to whether it's advertising? paid media decisions, but also broader marketing decisions or organic communication, what does that look like for you?

Jamie Seltzer
Yeah, absolutely. you know, so, so culture may not be one of our three C's, but I'll throw another, another one of our acronyms that you.

So we have something called CCBC, which is now hopefully I get this right. Consumer culture business and competitive. So it's when we are doing when we are thinking about like in our, in our kind of MX process, the first stage is intelligence and it's all about gathering as much intelligence as we can about these four areas. And it's about who are consumers, you know, what is the business, what is the business, what is the competitive and what is the culture?

What is the culture around this brand? And what is the culture in the market that we're in? So it's it's the brand's culture. It's the market. It's the, you know, and so it's all about kind of cultural relevance and what can we learn about culture. And so it is a huge part of what we are, doing when we use, when we do our intelligence phase.

is, is, you know, what can we learn about culture? And I think it's critically important, as you said, in all forms of media. But there's also we have a new, not new, but like, sort of like CSA. We launched another, another group within Havas probably about two years ago, called Havas play and it is focused on it's sort of content but not the way we're talking.

We're talking about it in terms of like experiential events, sponsorships, you know, brand adjacency to different, you know, sometimes they can go into influencers, they can go into, you know, but when we think about culture, especially, that group is constantly thinking about culture and cultural relevance of the brand that we're working with. And in their case, what kinds of events or things do they want to be associated with and what is what does it make the most sense to to surround as a brand?

So, you know, that could be sporting events. It could be, music festivals, it could be, you know, entertainment, it could be, you know, and placement into, you know, pop culture and movies and shows and things like that. So how do we integrate our band brands better into culture is a huge part of what Havas play does.

And and in order to do that, you really have to understand culture. You have to have a really strong perspective on it. And I think that's, you know, one of the places where we, you know, you guys and us were like super aligned on that because it's it's critical that if you can, you have to be culturally relevant.

It just looks weird. If you're like, that's so far out of left field, right?

Marissa Price
Yeah. We talk about speed too.)

Jamie Seltzer
Exactly. And so and that's exactly right. Like you have to speed to market, you know, you have to be on top of things. I mean, everyone talks about that sort of, you know, what was it, the Oreo Super Bowl bunch of years ago and, you know, speed and things like that.

But it also, you know, it was it was fun. It was culturally relevant, you know, like it's it was just sort of, you know, everyone talks about, you know, Super Bowl and snacking, like all of those things are very relevant. and, and they're tapped into sort of culture, cultural behavior. So absolutely, it's a huge part of what we think of, when we're planning not just not just some of the fun, you know, I joke around about, like, you know, drone shows and sponsorships and things like that.

But also when we are thinking about core media executions.

Marissa Price
Yeah, that's cool. It's it's exciting and, and like you said, we're very much aligned in that thinking. But I think it's it's also exciting for us to hear the industry think more and more that way. For us, that thought process probably started like 4 or 5 years ago at this point, right?

That something's changing, like there's a shift happening with consumers, with expectations, with with how everything is sort of intersecting. And to your point, we need to be future ready. Right. And how do we evolve our solutions so that when the industry is ready to talk about it more, we are ready to have a solution that really works in that space to help, brands and agencies navigate it all.

So it's very exciting for us to hear this as a topic become more and more important to the space and the industry and and partners that we work with, so that we can really work together to navigate those challenges, but also those opportunities together.

Jamie Seltzer
Yeah, absolutely.

Marissa Price
All right. Next up we are going to pick an ice cream.

Jamie Seltzer
Oh okay okay.

Marissa Price
Vanilla matcha strawberry orange and vanilla lemon and lavender chocolate

Jamie Seltzer
I was really looking for like a mint chocolate chip or like, cookies and cream. Yeah. It's just going to be a process of elimination. No mocha. No strawberry. Was it mocha? Something? Coffee? there's a there's a chocolate. Chocolate. Okay. Lemon and lavender. No orange and vanilla or vanilla.

I'm going chocolate. I'm going straight chocolate.

Marissa Price
I will say cookies and cream are notably absent.

Jamie Seltzer
Cookies and cream. Mint chocolate chip. Come on. It's like they've got a they're just trying the reaching. BuzzFeed I'll send the feedback after.

Marissa Price
And we're actually going to do two in a row. What about a what cupcake a cupcake okay.

Red velvet. Mint chocolate. I don't know if you prefer that in an ice cream, but it's available to you in a cupcake now. Red velvet. Mint chocolate. Chocolate. Hazelnut. or funfetti? Funfetti. Oh, I know already.

Jamie Seltzer
I could answer it for you, to be honest, but I want to go shopping. You have learned my preferences now.

Marissa Price
Exactly. We're on the same page.It's Funfetti or nothing.

Jamie Seltzer
I essentially have. I'm. As I was thinking about this, I feel like I have the taste buds of a toddler.

Marissa Price
Same. When I saw matcha listed as ice cream, I was like, that doesn't make sense. I'm with you. All right, so maybe rounding out some of our last questions here, we have talked a lot about the smart thinking, the rigor and discipline that goes into some of the decision making tests and learned frameworks, tools, all that great stuff, which is all really important, right?

When we're, when we're doing work on behalf of our clients. But there is something I'm interested to get your take on, which is what about when a brand is presented with an opportunity? We just talked about culture. We just talked about how quickly things move. You can't always be prepared for an opportunity that comes your way. What happens when that type of opportunity is presented?

But maybe there isn't the chance to have the perfect measurement framework, the perfect tracking, whether that's because, you know, solutions just aren't there yet, or it's a time factor where you just you can't move quickly enough to have all of those, steps perfectly laid out. How much room is there to hold hands anywhere?

Jamie Seltzer
I know where you're going with this.

Marissa Price
Right like we just go for it. Is there ever a time where we just go for it, or do we always really need a very calculated plan of action, and to know that we're going to be able to have the exact measurement on the other side?

Jamie Seltzer
Yeah. I mean, you know, I think that there's always value in rigor, but, we recognize that, you know, that's not always feasible.

It's not always possible. We work with clients all the time who, you know, I mean, go back to the original Oreo example. If that had to go through a measurement framework before they sent it out, there's it wouldn't happen. And and that would have been a missed opportunity. So of course, we are not so rigid that we believe that, you know, we need to that we sacrifice, you know, amazing work in the you know, in the face of measurement.

We're also talked about agility and flexibility before we're flexible enough to find a way after the fact of measuring success. Now, it may not be the direct link between sales and, social. You know, it it may not be perfect. It may not be exactly how we measure all of our other campaigns. It you know, it may be some sort of it may be based on proxy metrics.

It may you know, there are it may be slightly different. I guess that's the way of thinking about it. We need we may do things a little bit differently and and people have to you know, I think we we and our clients have to recognize from the beginning we'll say, hey, listen, we don't have time to set up a measurement plan.

We don't have time to track this. So we're all going to have to agree that we're going to measure this one a little bit differently. And it may not flow directly into our reporting dashboard and line up nicely along with other our all of our other ones doesn't mean it's not worth doing. And that's you know, I think that's the the I think ultimately my personal opinion is as long as everybody is aligned from the start, then we're good, as long as we're all aligned that some of the things may not be possible, but will work on other ways of tracking, will work on other ways of measuring success.

Maybe it's a survey that we, the brand, you know, a brand lift survey that we launch after the fact. Who knows? But the reality is, is that measurement shouldn't stop people from doing work. It should be a way that we think about how to look at success. it's not always going to be the most consistent, but it should never be a barrier.

It should always be, you know, an enhancement, you know? Yes. There's a there's a process that we would love to follow, but that, you know, we're not it's not a utopia. We're not you know, we're not we're not, blind to the fact that things need to go move at a certain pace and we need to move along with them.

And sometimes we'll be able to do that from the start, and sometimes it will be after the fact. And as long as we're all aligned going into it and everybody's expectations are aligned going into it, then, then we should never act, measurement should never act as a barrier to doing great work.

Marissa Price
Yeah, that's so true. And the word aligned there, it really resonates. Right. Because we talked a little bit earlier about the fact that sometimes it takes upfront work to get aligned so that when something further downstream becomes an opportunity, you have a general sense of whether this. Maybe conflicts with a non-negotiable for a brand, or whether it's something where there's a little bit more space to play around and get creative.

So that you're ready to to move quicker and to up and to your point, not stifle the work and the opportunity that's there. Because sometimes great marketing might just be great marketing and maybe that's okay.

Jamie Seltzer
Exactly. I mean, like we, you know, I mean, I there are so many pieces of advertising marketing that I remember and I don't remotely think about how it was measured or how was it successful in driving me.

It's just really good work. And that's okay. That's part of what we love. that's part of why we do this work, is because it's really fun.

Marissa Price
I couldn't ask for a better note to end on that. We will have you choose your favorite drink to go along with your desserts.

Jamie Seltzer
Okay.

Marissa Price
Milk smoothie, milkshake, tea, coffee or water?

Jamie Seltzer
I mean, a milkshake is a dessert in and of itself. So I'm just going to add that to the list.

Marissa Price
I feel like a freebie at that point.

Jamie Seltzer
I mean yeah, that's just good business sense right there.

Marissa Price
Exactly. Awesome. Okay. We are going to tally up your results. All right. Yeah. We're going to let you know very soon.

We're going to get there. So we're crunching the numbers like I said as we speak while we run that very statistically confident analysis. Tell us a little bit. Obviously if people want to learn more about you, they can find you at Jamie Seltzer on LinkedIn. What about your team more broadly? Are you producing any type of obviously, day to day you're focused on client work, but are you producing any kind of thought leadership pieces or releasing any, you know, research across the industry that people should be aware of?

Jamie Seltzer
Yeah, absolutely. So we are I mean, I would certainly say follow the LinkedIn channel. So there's a CSA LinkedIn, page that you should follow because, we're constantly putting out work and it's not just global work. So yes, I'm currently at right after this I'm going to start working on we're doing our 2025 trends, which is an amalgamation of of ideas and opinions from around the world, from our teams around the world, which is very exciting.

We did 1 in 2020. We did one for 24. Now we're working on one for 25. That's up there. But we're also constantly highlighting really great work from around the markets. thought leadership pieces from around the world. you know, panels and presentations that we're doing. Our friends in Germany just presented at a Google presentation with our Telefonica clients.

So there's always really interesting work. And showcasing really great work on our, on our CSA LinkedIn page. And then you can always find news and updates on our website as well, that we can, that we can share out. It's also it's nested as part of the overall Havas US media website. but you can find us there as well.

or you can always just find me on LinkedIn and reach out and ask and see what's going on.

Marissa Price
Awesome. Thank you. I'm sure, a lot of our listeners as well will want to hear more. So that's a great way for them to continue to follow the great work that you and your team are doing. Okay. Drumroll.

You are mashed potatoes. It's a good one.

Jamie Seltzer
I mean, I love mashed potatoes and I’m a big fan. I, I don't know if that says I'm boring,

Marissa Price
NO I was, on the contrary. I have a description. I'm ready to go. Okay. You're probably really popular and you're always the coolest person in the room. People just love being around you, which for my experience over the last a little bit of time we've spent together, it checks out.

Jamie Seltzer
I love it, I love it. Well, I'm going to embrace my inner mashed potatoes now. I'm very excited.

Marissa Price
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for spending the time with me and with our listeners. It was really great to learn a little bit more about you, about your team and the great work that you're doing. And we can we're excited to continue the conversation in the future.

Jamie Seltzer
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. I love watching what Sightly's doing and then how you guys are growing and pushing forward. So thank you again for having me.